33 ответов в теме

[Burning Man]

Pyramids? The whole cities made of stone where such constractions like pyramids were kinda a center of social life and worship -- that's what I remember about all those ancient Indian cultures.

What are you talking about? Pyramids were an Egyptian architecture. I'm pretty sure you're also mistaking them for the Aztecs or the Mayans. The Native Americans did not build such architecture.

The original picture that you posted, Kromy; the one from Ito's website actually has a title associated to it: 3328. Can you guys figure out the significance of that number? If you do, then the point of Ito's picture will become clear as will the murals, in my opinion. (Actually, the whole concept of Claudia's Paradise will be made clear.)

By the way, the numbers below the murals are simply texture numbers. That one, unfortunately, does not have a plot relevance.

Изменено: Burning Man, 09 Август 2007 - 11:23

[St.Aatos]

3328.

Wow I am completely stumped. If it has anything to do with Gematria...

3= Divine completeness
2= Union or Witness
8= New Creation of Beginning

28 = Eternal life.

hmmm 3+3+2+8 = 16 and 1+6 = 7

16=Love

7= Spiritual Completeness from God.

Yeh...I'm stumped.

[Kromy]

Wow... at first I thought that the numbers might have something to do with the Tarot Cards and, eventually, with the chapters of the Lost Memories book (that would make: 3 - The Empress (Alessa), 2 - The High Priestess (Claudia), 8 - Strenght (Power of the Town)), but then I realized that the picture was made in 1999... So I have no idea.

What are you talking about? Pyramids were an Egyptian architecture. I'm pretty sure you're also mistaking them for the Aztecs or the Mayans. The Native Americans did not build such architecture.

But someone built those ruins. And yes, I was talking about the Mayan and Aztec culture -- they also had pyramids quite similar to the Egyptian ones (that looked like this). Don't forget that while the Native Americans belived in spirits and were, as you said, closer to nature, the cult is obviously based greatly on Mayan and Aztec religious beliefs -- the sacrificial rituals to the bloodthirsty gods ("the roots of the Crimson Ceremony lie in Mayan and Aztec rituals. At one time, the ritual of human sacrifice was quite prevalent" ~ Lost Memories) and the gods themselves -- Xuchilbara and Lobsel Vith -- also influenced by those cultures ("the names of the gods have Mayan and Aztec motifs" ~ Hiroyuki Owaku). So I'm not mistaking anything -- was it intentional or a mistake on the part of Team Silent that didn't know where the Mayan and Aztec empires were located -- either way, the cult has many things to do with these cultures and assuming that the ruins might have the same origin would be quite logical, really.

[St.Aatos]

Hmm about the numbers. 3x3 is 9 and 2x8= 16. 9x16 = 144. In the Bible there's a mention of the 144,000, but I doubt this relates...

hmm 3x3=9 9x2=18 18x8 = 144...



Anyways I'm also starting to think that part of the ancient religion may be influenced by the Dine aka the Navajo myths. For one thing there's the stone "Nahkeenhona" (which looks like two rocks) and Nahkeen in Dine means "two". Also in the Navajo creation/beginning story they believed that humans first started out as insects in the underworld and were constantly fighting. They would go up worlds, and when they got to the fourth world they stopped fighting long enough to become human.

And then they started fighting and killing each other again.


Anyways maybe it doesn't have that much significance, but it is interesting to say the least.

Oh wait...hmm now this is interesting. According to the myths The Holy People (deities) were making the necessary things for life (clouds, trees, rain.) when monsters appeared and started attacking the Earth People (humans.) A miracle happens and Asdzaa Nadleehe (Ever Changing Woman) is born. She grows up, marries the Sun and gives birth to twin sons. "Monster Slayer" and "Child Born of Water." The sons in turn kill the monsters.

Again the myths are NOT exactly alike, but there's a lot of similarities.


Alright something new I discovered.

By now almost everybody has heard of the fogged glass room. Anyways I noticed that the walls in this room also have murals and concept art images on them. The most striking one however?

A wall in which one can see a woman in white (from the Light to the Future painting.) kneeling down before a nude woman (woman from "Light Illuminating the Darkness.) and surrounding the nude woman is the Incubus. (ok actually the Incubus takes up the entire wall practically, but still.)

Изменено: St.Aatos, 14 Август 2007 - 03:08

[Burning Man]

So I'm not mistaking anything -- was it intentional or a mistake on the part of Team Silent that didn't know where the Mayan and Aztec empires were located -- either way, the cult has many things to do with these cultures and assuming that the ruins might have the same origin would be quite logical, really.

No... Team Silent is very aware of where the Mayan and Aztec empires were located. However, they were rather ambiguous in clarifying to the audience whether the cult was inspired by those cultures within the Silent Hill universe (such as with the native beliefs and Christianity), or if it was simply an outside inspiration when Owaku (and Toyama) created the fictional cult in the first place.

I believe it is the latter, since Ushinawareta Kioku ~Silent Hill Chronicle~ also strongly suggests that the cult took some inspiration from Japanese Shinto with the altar.

Personally, I think the underground oratory and its murals may have been created by the residents that lived before the present residents' ancestors (whom are mentioned in the Book of Lost Memories from Silent Hill 2).

Re:3328

Sorry for the wait, but 3328 is in reference to a certain passage in the Bible, Job 33:28.

If you're interested, please consult Job from the Old Testament. As far as I know, the team took a lot of inspiration from Job, since Silent Hill 2 (maybe since the first one, but I'm not sure). Remember the writings in the restroom that James starts from.

Изменено: Burning Man, 16 Август 2007 - 23:23

[Kromy]

Wow, I'm impressed! Would have never guessed it about the numbers being a reference to a passage in the Bible myself (yeah, I'm probably a lousy Christian, hehe ^^). I hope Aatos will clarify the rest, since I still have no idea XD

About the ruins... Ok, I see your point, Burning Man. Guess there's no need to agrue over it anymore since we clearly know just not enough to say anything with certainty, and that's okey by me -- let them stay as they were -- "the mysterious ruins".

Actually, talking about Shinto, and since Aatos mentioned "Nahkeenhona", I've got something too. Today I've watched the first episode of the anime "Higurashi no Naku Koro ni Kai" and noticed there one interesting comment about Shinto. Here's the text:

..."Goshintai" (ご神体). This literally means the physical body of a god, in the sense that it's some object that the god's spirit dwells in. All the Shinto shrines have one of these. It can be a mirror, a katana, or even a natural object like a rock or lake, any kind of object that a god is thought to live in. It's even possible to create a new one via an elaborate ceremony, which is done in the case of object that would rot over time.

That can explain some things in SH4. The whole concept of "Nahkeenhona" might be inspired by this "Goshintai" from Shinto. Also the part that says about a possible recreation of this physical body of a god via an elaborate ceremony can be perfectly applied to the Walter's story with the apartment (in this case, the room can be considered a "Goshintai").

Another little note I thought might be interesting:

In Shinto mythology, souls that die with hatred in their hearts or unfulfilled wishes come back as oni (鬼, means 'demon').

I think it can explain some things in the series too...

So yeah, we should look deeper into the whole thing about Shinto while analyzing the religion of the Order...

[Burning Man]

Re: Goshintai

Bingo, Kromy. I tried explaining this concept for a long time now, but it's rare that people understood it from a western point-of-view. Only a few were open-minded enough to understand this. (Well, you know how many people are busy to make fun of Walter for believing that Room 302 was his mother...) I know St.Aatos understands this, and I'm relieved to see that you understand it as well, Kromy.

The concept of a [shintai] ([go-] is simply an honorary prefix) was used since the first Silent Hill. Alessa was used as that [shintai] as were attempted on many other girls. The Play Novel has a memo that explains the concept and its practice in the cult.

In Shinto mythology, souls that die with hatred in their hearts or unfulfilled wishes come back as oni

Hmm, I translated one of Tsuboyama's explanation a few years back. Here's what he said about the 'victims':

The victims that are wondering around this world have been deprived of "death" and are forced on everlasting pain. In the ancient Japanese paintings of hell, the strong visuals will easily steal your attention away, but I feel the true horror is that one cannot die regardless of how much pain he receives. To the ghost, would this world certainly be hell and horror? The thought of wanting to escape from this world is what would have made them attack the main character. Being pierced by the *"Sword of Obedience," and helplessly struggling; its appearance could be presented only by a ghost that could not die.

If you're interested in Shinto and how its inspiration to the Sun God, look up Amaterasu, the Shinto sun goddess. Wikipedia actually has a painting of Amaterasu that you may recognize (!).

[St.Aatos]

Any particular translation of the Bible they used? (King James version? etc)

Anyways here's the verse.

"He will deliver his soul from going into the pit, and his life shall see the light."

I read Job chapter 33 to give myself more understanding of that verse. http://www.biblegate...c...&version=9;

If you're interested in Shinto and how its inspiration to the Sun God, look up Amaterasu, the Shinto sun goddess. Wikipedia actually has a painting of Amaterasu that you may recognize (!).

Ahh, it looks like "Flame Purifies All"

[Burning Man]

Any particular translation of the Bible they used?

This may sound a bit obvious, but I think they used the Japanese translation. I know for a fact that one writing in the restroom is from the New American Standard Version, and another writing is from the Revised Standard Version, so the sources are not exactly consistent.

When I received e-mails from Konami for the release of Silent Hill 4, they had sent me a passage (actually, two) from Job that, in its Japanese translation, I wasn't able to recognize immediately.

[St.Aatos]

*smacks forehead*

that should have been obvious.

Now that we have this information I have to confess that the verse alone doesn't really seem to clear up much about the murals, the image 3328. The only thing I can relate between that and Silent Hill (perhaps even the 3328 image.) is that the one who will deliver them from the pit, is the woman being crucified.

In earlier verses before this one it mentions messengers. I suppose the two Pyramid Heads could be considered messengers.


...

On another topic. Is it just me, or does Silent Hill 3 really rely alot on trinities? Almost every painting is marked by a trinity of some sort.

1. Flame Purifies All - The Woman in white is surrounded by a shadow of Alessa, who is surrounded by either the Incubus, or a symbol of the sun and moon merging.

2. Origin - Three figures in this painting. A woman in white in the center (who looks like the mother), a man in red(who looks like the father.) and a woman in yellow.

3. Creation - The God with Xuchilbara and Lobsel Vith at her right and left side.

4. The murals, which are said to depict a woman surrounded by Valtiel, and Incubus.

5. The Stained glass paintings that depict the God surrounded by the mother of God, and the father of God (who ironically looks like Alessa. I wonder if this is an inside gag relating to the fact that Alessa was originally supposed to be a boy.)

6. The belfry room. Paintings of three saints. In the center is a painting of St. Alessa, with paintings of St. Nicholas and St. Jennifer on either side.

7. The mural in the fogged glass room. (nightmare hospital.) Actually I didn't see this until someone posted the image online. It's actually the paintings "Light Illuminating the Darkness" and "Light to the Future" imposed so it looks like the woman in white is kneeling before a naked woman. Also interposed into this is the Incubus.

hmm...

[SilentPyramid]

I think it was great idea for Team Silent to use pieces of Masahiro Ito's artwork for the church textures -- it has a great psychological effect of chaos in it. By the way, it's also interesting that only those art works were used, that had something to do with religion -- Valtiel, Incubus, PH, cruscified woman and such.
By the way, when discussing the murals, we must remember that murals that we see in the game don't actually have to be the same in the real church -- so the murals in SH3 can be interpreted as a mix of Alessa\Heather's abstract memories of real murals and icons that she saw in the real church, all mixed up and manifested in Otherworld. That's why we see mixed parts of different religion images there and there.

Re:3328

Sorry for the wait, but 3328 is in reference to a certain passage in the Bible, Job 33:28.

If you're interested, please consult Job from the Old Testament. As far as I know, the team took a lot of inspiration from Job, since Silent Hill 2 (maybe since the first one, but I'm not sure). Remember the writings in the restroom that James starts from.

I believe that, if we search for any meaning in 3328, than it caould be most believeble interpretation. But actually, i don't think that there much meaning in the name "3328" -- just looking at the other name of pictures at Masahiro Ito's website - for example "iki1", "sh3_h3", "SDCG\r22", "soldier2", "notitle" and such clearly states that picture's names are just... random. =)
So, it's a bit unlikely that Masahiro Ito really meant to include deep meaning in it.

Изменено: SilentPyramid, 19 Август 2007 - 22:36

[St.Aatos]

So, it's a bit unlikely that Masahiro Ito really meant to include deep meaning in it.

Err, I have to disagree. Earlier, I think Burning Man mentioned that he had received emails from Konami.

When I received e-mails from Konami for the release of Silent Hill 4, they had sent me a passage (actually, two) from Job that, in its Japanese translation, I wasn't able to recognize immediately.

The fact that the creators of Silent Hill have used passages from Job in Silent Hill 2, and other places suggests that, yes, they were influenced by the book of Job. Seeing as how Masahiro Ito was the main art director of SH1, SH2, and SH3 suggests that he too was influenced by Job.

And if you think about it, without pretense it makes sense. The main story in Job, is about how God allows Satan to torment Job for a time. Of course God does this, because Satan says that the only reason Job worships God is because Job has it easy.

The message of the book of Job is essentially, will people who worship God be able to keep their faith when faced with numerous trials? And in Silent Hill we see a lot of faith testing.

[Kromy]

Bingo, Kromy. I tried explaining this concept for a long time now, but it's rare that people understood it from a western point-of-view. Only a few were open-minded enough to understand this. (Well, you know how many people are busy to make fun of Walter for believing that Room 302 was his mother...) I know St.Aatos understands this, and I'm relieved to see that you understand it as well, Kromy.

The concept of a [shintai] ([go-] is simply an honorary prefix) was used since the first Silent Hill. Alessa was used as that [shintai] as were attempted on many other girls. The Play Novel has a memo that explains the concept and its practice in the cult.

Awesome, I didn't know I'd stumble onto something that major! *hehe, watching animes might be more useful than I thought ^^* Anyways, that makes perfect sense, and now that you're saying it's been used since the first game... guess I need to read some stuff about Shinto, because to tell you the truth, I've been seeing lots of references to it in animes and other games that I always thought would fit with the concepts of SH, but my major take was that Japanese developers/creators like to "borrow" ideas from one another (you know what I mean =) -- now I clearly see that it's not so and they actually all lead to Shinto!

Hmm, I translated one of Tsuboyama's explanation a few years back. Here's what he said about the 'victims':

The victims that are wondering around this world have been deprived of "death" and are forced on everlasting pain. In the ancient Japanese paintings of hell, the strong visuals will easily steal your attention away, but I feel the true horror is that one cannot die regardless of how much pain he receives. To the ghost, would this world certainly be hell and horror? The thought of wanting to escape from this world is what would have made them attack the main character. Being pierced by the *"Sword of Obedience," and helplessly struggling; its appearance could be presented only by a ghost that could not die.

Yeah, very interesting, and it's all about Shinto which, as I see it now, was a major inspiration nor only for the religion in SH but even for some basic concepts as well!
BTW, maybe you should read the full version of that comment from the anime -- surprisingly, it has so much in common with Tsuboyama's explanation:

http://i162.photobuc...-Spear/Text.jpg

"He will deliver his soul from going into the pit, and his life shall see the light."

It makes me think about the "Light Illuminating the Darkness" and "Light to the Future" pictures, and it's like if the "3328" is a combination of both -- the depiction is quite similar and it also has something to do with Light... so there's certainly some strong suggestion.


I just thought of something, doesn't the "3328" picture remind this:



For some reason I think it does: for one we have two PHs surrounding "a female figure" put onto a torture/sacrificial device (might be a censured version of a cross) and also the fact that the picture was made before SH2, so...

[St.Aatos]

About the book of Job. - I still need to read the entire book, but what I've read so far I can see why Team Silent was influenced by it. Chapter 3 is this chapter where Job curses the day he is was born. He wants the day of his birth to be blacked out, for God to not care about this day, or to care about Job. The chapter is in essence one huge suicide note to God.

All due in part to God allowing Satan to torment Job as a test of faith.

Hmm perhaps I'll read some more of it tonight at work. (yeah, we have a Bible at the store I work, and with it being Wednesday...and slow...)

******

Hmmm, I guess I should look into this Shinto business. I have however noticed that there are other cultures and myths that parallel Silent Hill. I'm doing some more studying of Greek mythology since a few of it's Gods and deities seem to parallel Silent Hill.

[Kromy]

So, any progress at reading Job?

BTW, I forgot to thank Burning Man for the suggesting about Amaterasu -- it's very interesting, and the picture really does look like "Flame Purifies All". Here, that picture (which has quite a small file size):



Come to think of it, it also reminds the "Salvation" which depicts the Sun God as well.


*As an offtopic note: I hope Burning Man's long absence isn't connected with the recent group changes on the forum. You see, I myself couldn't post in this thread because of that -- my group got temporarily changed from "Заблудшие души" to "Рождённые" which probably was the reason. So in case the same is happening to Burning Man the posting in another thread might help (as it did in my case which has also returned back my previous group name).*