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Murals (the church, SH3)


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#1 Kromy

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Опубликовано 30 Июль 2007 - 20:44

Let's discuss the murals from the church in SH3.

For someone not in the know: they can be seen on the walls in many places in the church. The book of Lost Memories says the following:

"In a passageway and on an outer wall of the otherside church, a mural is created from a drawing of Valtiel and Incubus centered around a female figure."

"Furthermore, it is established that the underground area of the otherworld's church is in fact a ruin where the town's former residents once conducted rituals. If one examines the walls in detail, it becomes apparent that there are new discoveries to be made."

Besides that, one of the passages in the book mentiones that the Flauros was excavated from those ancient ruins. And so this place, in fact, did play an important role in the origins of the cult's religion.

The whole composition from one of the walls:
Изображение

*Thanks to Kodaemon from SHF for his efforts with the 'SH3 Level Viewer' to make this wonderful picture!*

The whole composition reveals many vague forms and it's hard to discern anything specific. However, after going through many SH images and concept arts the connections have been made: it seems that the whole thing consists from several drawings made by Masahiro Ito for the series as concept arts. Although some of them might be scraped pieces of artworks for some of the creatures.

Ok, let's look at them:

Изображение
Looks very similar to the old design for PH that had been scraped and, probably, later became an inspiration for the design of Valtiel.


Изображение
A resemblance to the concept art of PH is obvious.


Изображение
As LM says -- the Incubus. This is probably the best view out there for mostly this part of the mural is always located in corners or in very inconvenient places where it hardly can be seen.


Изображение
Ito's depiction of Incubus.


Изображение
This is probably the most interesting. For a long time it wasn't clear what this figure represents as well as what the original is. Many speculation had been made but none of them was good enough. Only the fact that is represents the "female figure" mentioned in LM raised no doubts, but other then that...


Изображение
...well, until just recently this image was discovered (thanks to t.A.T.u from SHF!). This drawing by Masahiro Ito is obviously the original for the mural -- we can even see the PH's! (BTW, for those interested to see other Ito's works, visit the gallery on his site, here: http://www.geocities.jp/nobu_hill/)


So that's basically all for the source material. Now for the ideas and theories...

Is all this just an easter egg or there's something more to it? Could it all have some plot relevance?

If yes, the first thing we should consider is that these murals are ancient and weren't created neither by Dahlia, Claudia, Vincent or the likes of them but by the ancient native inhabitants that used to worship there. What do we get from this? Well, in this case the concept of "the main deity" hardly can be applied for this structure in the religion obviously comes from the Christian monotheism the ancient natives had nothing to do with. So if the whole composition depicts deities, those would be the ancient indian gods -- which means Xuchilbara and Lobsel Vith are probably among them. And in some way they are corresponding to Valtiel/PH, Incubus and the woman...

Ok, from this point I leave the rest for the discussion and interpretations... happy.gif
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#2 StMalKavian

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Опубликовано 30 Июль 2007 - 23:39

Wow... :gg:
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#3 Azraille

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Опубликовано 31 Июль 2007 - 01:51

Цитата
Ito's depiction of Incubus.
when i saw this pic for the ferst time i was wondered: it's looks like a horrible indian God. I saw some pics of Ganesh, indian god with an elefants head - it looks similary ^)
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#4 St.Aatos

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Опубликовано 31 Июль 2007 - 05:06

The first thing that comes to mind is a conversation I had with my co-worker concerning different cultures worshipping a similar central deity/creator. (He's Jewish, I'm Gnostic.) In our discussion he brought up the belief that all life started in one place, and that it wasn't until the fall of the Tower of Babel that the land was split apart and people were now split into different groups.

But having knowledge of the myths from long ago from this one area the different groups in different lands begin adapting these myths to their new culture.

Why do I bring this up? The image of the woman being crucified is very similar to other crucifixion stories all over the world.

It also appears that there are four figures and not just three. Most interesting in my opinion is how the image of Incubus is the largest of them all. This (along with other things) gives me a little nudge that it is Incubus who is the main deity. Perhaps to the natives this strange goat like entity would be considered their central creator. (LM says that amongst the religions of Silent Hill is the native religion, and that part of the native religion was invoking the power of animals.) I do think that according to the natives that an entity baring a more animal like appearance would be more revered that a man with a helmet, or a crucified woman.

However when the Europeans came over there is the possibility that they saw the depictions of these figures. Being of the Christian faith they probably saw the image of the crucified woman and probably gave the natives a speech about how this figure is closer to the image of the "true God" than the depiction of "Incubus"


So for that reason I'm guessing that to the natives.

Incubus = Creator God

Woman = Lobsel Vith (or possibly Bisu)

Man/PH/Valtiel = Xuchilbara
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#5 Kromy

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Опубликовано 01 Август 2007 - 20:58

Thanks for your comments, st-MK and Azraille!

Цитата(Azraille)
when i saw this pic for the ferst time i was wondered: it's looks like a horrible indian God. I saw some pics of Ganesh, indian god with an elefants head - it looks similary ^)

Actually, yeah -- this picture is slightly different from the more mainstream one depicting Incubus, and yeah, it has this impression you mentioned (I think the head slightly reminds Alien ^). Here, the mainstream one -- the Incubus on it has the more usual goat-headed look: Incubus

Цитата(St.Aatos)
However when the Europeans came over there is the possibility that they saw the depictions of these figures. Being of the Christian faith they probably saw the image of the crucified woman and probably gave the natives a speech about how this figure is closer to the image of the "true God" than the depiction of "Incubus"

So for that reason I'm guessing that to the natives.

Incubus = Creator God

Woman = Lobsel Vith (or possibly Bisu)

Man/PH/Valtiel = Xuchilbara

I like this version -- especially the part about how Christian influence worked. And probably it's also the time when Incubus was named "Samael" for its look, Xuchilbara -- Metatron/Valtiel for being the closest (even literally) to God, and Woman -- the God (the Lord of Serpents and Reeds, Creator of Paradise) for bearing some resemblance to Jesus.

Anyway, I have another version about what those deities might have represented for the natives. What if the two PH's/Valtiel's are Xuchilbara and Lobsel Vith? This might be the reason why in the modern version of the myth they are depicted equally next to God like two servents -- the right and the left hand of God. Then maybe Incubus and Woman are higher gods, or Incubus -- a god, and Woman -- just a victim for the sacrifice or something.

Still I like your version more.
Actually, come to think of it, is there a possibility that the murals were made not in the ancient times but much later -- when the cult started, perhaps? It's just a cross and a pretty much Christian depiction of a demon -- isn't it kinda weird for Mayan and Aztec culture?

BTW, yeah "Lobsel Vith" written in Japanese (ロブセル・ビス) reads like "Ro-bu-se-ru Bi-su".

Изменено: Kromy, 01 Август 2007 - 21:11

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#6 Burning Man

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Опубликовано 02 Август 2007 - 08:29

Цитата(Kromy)
the first thing we should consider is that these murals are ancient and weren't created neither by Dahlia, Claudia, Vincent or the likes of them but by the ancient native inhabitants that used to worship there.

Well, it's not definitive that the murals were created by the natives. Remember that there was another race that lived in Silent Hill before the present inhabitants and their ancestors. The Book of Lost Memories from Silent Hill 2 briefly talks about these people. They simply disappeared without a trace one day.

Additionally, it's a bit awkward imagining that the American natives would have built the altar underground as they are closer to nature.

One thing to keep in mind is that the murals are exclusive to the otherworld. Of course, we have no way of knowing if these murals exist in the real world as well, but if they really exist only in the otherworld, then we can deduce that the otherworld existed way back then, but also that, perhaps, the inhabitants from back then believed the otherworld to be a place of holiness.

Цитата(Kromy)
BTW, yeah "Lobsel Vith" written in Japanese (ロブセル・ビス) reads like "Ro-bu-se-ru Bi-su".

The reason St.Aatos mentioned that is because I told her that [bisu] can mean "to follow someone by their tail" or simply, "to tail someone."

Considering that Lobsel Vith is one of the lower gods created by the god to follow Her, the usage of [bisu] may have been intentional.
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#7 St.Aatos

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Опубликовано 02 Август 2007 - 09:52

Цитата
One thing to keep in mind is that the murals are exclusive to the otherworld. Of course, we have no way of knowing if these murals exist in the real world as well, but if they really exist only in the otherworld, then we can deduce that the otherworld existed way back then, but also that, perhaps, the inhabitants from back then believed the otherworld to be a place of holiness.


Here's something of interest I learned. I get into quite a few religious discussions with my co-worker. During another one of our discussions we were talking about the world before the flood. (The one that drowned nearly the entire world.) He mentioned that according to scientists it never rained until the flood. However the sun was constantly covered by clouds. Amongst this was also a constant layer of mist which would condense into water every night and fall to the ground watering the earth.

Anyone notice how not the nightmare world, but the otherworld is always cloudy and surrounded by a thick veil of mist?

In other words I do think that the otherworld could most definately have been a place of Holiness for these people.


Цитата
The reason St.Aatos mentioned that is because I told her that [bisu] can mean "to follow someone by their tail" or simply, "to tail someone."


Not exactly, I mean that's not the only reason I mentioned it. You did tell me about the term bisu and it's meaning. There however is the little thing that there is a real life deity of Egypt called Bisu. (which I'll make a new topic about in a minute.)
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#8 Burning Man

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Опубликовано 02 Август 2007 - 11:09

Цитата(St.Aatos @ Thursday, 02 August 2007, 1:52) [snapback]323651[/snapback]
Цитата
The reason St.Aatos mentioned that is because I told her that [bisu] can mean "to follow someone by their tail" or simply, "to tail someone."


Not exactly, I mean that's not the only reason I mentioned it. You did tell me about the term bisu and it's meaning. There however is the little thing that there is a real life deity of Egypt called Bisu. (which I'll make a new topic about in a minute.)

My bad. I knew I forgot something.
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#9 St.Aatos

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Опубликовано 02 Август 2007 - 11:51

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My bad. I knew I forgot something.


It's ok. All is forgiven. tongue.gif
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#10 Kromy

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Опубликовано 03 Август 2007 - 22:44

Цитата(Burning Man)
Well, it's not definitive that the murals were created by the natives. Remember that there was another race that lived in Silent Hill before the present inhabitants and their ancestors. The Book of Lost Memories from Silent Hill 2 briefly talks about these people. They simply disappeared without a trace one day.

That's what I'm wondering about. The ruins themselves are ancient but the murals might be not... but there's still a reason I think it weren't those mysteriously disappeared inhabitants that made the murals. I'll try to explain it in connection with the following...

Цитата(Burning Man)
Additionally, it's a bit awkward imagining that the American natives would have built the altar underground as they are closer to nature.

Pyramids? The whole cities made of stone where such constractions like pyramids were kinda a center of social life and worship -- that's what I remember about all those ancient Indian cultures. And don't forget the fact that it is underground in our time doesn't mean it was the same way back then. That's why all those ancient ruins are always found underground during either mining excavations or archeological digs. In case of these ruins underneath the church the first is very likely since we know that there was a mine in Silent Hill that was closed down at about the same time the cult started -- a very interesting coincidence! So I'm sure these ruins were found during mining excavations and right after that the cult's church was built on the place. That would make sense if the murals were found along with the ruins for it might have been the original inspiration for the cult. As it can be seen and theorized, they contain all the deities the cult worships.

Interesting idea about the otherworld though... :gg:

Actually, I wanted to add a couple of other mural-concept art references (not that impressive and important ones though, but still) but guess I'll do it next time. XP
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#11 St.Aatos

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Опубликовано 04 Август 2007 - 05:57

Well, if the murals are in fact only seen in the otherworld then they could in fact be reflections of Alessa's unconcious mind.
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#12 Kromy

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Опубликовано 06 Август 2007 - 20:07

As I promised, a couple of new pictures.

Изображение

Not much of importance or a plot relevance can be seen on this one. Still, the pieces of concept arts are again taken straight from Masahiro Ito's gallery.


Изображение

Well, I think it's Claudia but maybe of course it's my imagination playing tricks XD


Изображение

This one is more an idea/theory. Could this depiction of a female deity (God) come from the mural originally? I think it's quite possible that people saw the lowered/covered head of the deity as a sign of a great importance and depicted it on the stained glass -- this time in a more respected/dignified way (like in Christianity). Then no wonder the manifestation of God brought to life by Claudia's/Heather's mind had this feature as well since they both prayed before that stained glass.
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#13 St.Aatos

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Опубликовано 07 Август 2007 - 03:02

Hmm the difference between the women though is at least one (the mural one) she's being crucified.

I also find it a bit questionable that Lost Memories states the woman is being surrounded by Valtiel and Incubus when in fact she's being surrounded by Valtiel and Pyramid Head. Incubus actually appears outside of the group.

Oh and btw Kromy. I noticed the numbers at the bottom of the mural and then rearranged the mural by the numbers.

It umm...didn't reveal much of anything.

And woah! I just noticed something!


Look at the original image of the crucified woman surrounded by the two Pyramid Heads (not the one on the murals, but the one from Ito's gallery.) now take a look at the Pyramid Head on her right. (our left.) It's the same one on the mural!

Изменено: St.Aatos, 07 Август 2007 - 03:21

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#14 Kromy

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Опубликовано 09 Август 2007 - 00:35

Цитата(St.Aatos)
I also find it a bit questionable that Lost Memories states the woman is being surrounded by Valtiel and Incubus when in fact she's being surrounded by Valtiel and Pyramid Head. Incubus actually appears outside of the group.

That might be either one of those famous "translation issues" or they do intentionally imply that Valtiel and PH are the same. Who's 'PH' anyway? ^^ The name James came up with!? lol Would be funny if they used this name describing an ancient mural composition -- at least that would instantly ruin any possibility to consider the whole thing as something more than just an easter egg.
So in this case everything's right: the woman is being surrounded by Valtiel (x2) and Incubus. XD


Цитата(St.Aatos)
Oh and btw Kromy. I noticed the numbers at the bottom of the mural and then rearranged the mural by the numbers.

It umm...didn't reveal much of anything.

I noticed them a long time ago (and even asked about it in that original Murals thread on SHF) but it doesn't seem anyone has any idea. Originally I also thought it could be some kind of puzzle you need to arrange according to the numbers, but as you can see -- it doesn't reveal anything (besides that we have managed to recognise almost everything out there without any rearrangements). I've heard of a version that the numbers could indicate the burial places of some sort, but I dunno about that... could be.


Цитата(St.Aatos)
Look at the original image of the crucified woman surrounded by the two Pyramid Heads (not the one on the murals, but the one from Ito's gallery.) now take a look at the Pyramid Head on her right. (our left.) It's the same one on the mural!

Of course! On the murals this version is supposed to represent PH since there's also another one -- without any pyramid-like constructions on his head (simply Valtiel). Well, either they're all just different depictions of Valtiel (very likely) or we might consider a suggestion towards something big! Maybe they do imply after all that PH and Valtiel are Xuchilbara and Lobsel Vith? That would fit with the idea: on the "Creation" LV is on the left side from God and so the idea also implies Valtiel to be LV. Actually, a very interesting analogy between the two depictions we have... guess that would make Incubus something else -- rather some different god (higher than Xuchi and LV), maybe some kind of adversary.
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#15 St.Aatos

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Опубликовано 09 Август 2007 - 02:21

Hmm although Pyramid Head appears on the woman's right, while Valtiel appears on her left. That would suggest that Valtiel is Xuchilbara and Pyramid Head is Lobsel Vith.

However in the creation painting we do see a depiction of Pyramid Head right next to Lobsel Vith.
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