42 ответов в теме

[Kromy]

Oh man, this debate reminds me those 'hot' discussions over the SHF not so long ago. ^^ The practice shows they lead rather nowhere unless some compromise is made. I myself was a big fan of the 'gods are just delusions, it's all in their heads' approach but have learned to combine different views on the subject since then. So here’re my opinions and views…

No, i don't think that the sect placed REAL Valtiel inside children -- first, what proof do we have to say that sect's followers could PLACE some real spirit inside the children?

Placing Incubus within Alessa is a strong suggestion.

Also, IMHO it doesn't make sense that they could place REAL Valtiel in every child

I don't know about "every child," but I'm quite sure that Rosten placed Valtiel in Walter.

A phrase such as "Valtiel wo shinobi komaseru koto" can hardly be used for your reasoning. The phrase is closer in meaning that Rosten made Valtiel infiltrate into Walter's unconsciousness. Rosten is dealing with an actual entity and not a concept.

A complex approach is required here.

The Victim List says that Rosten devoted himself to raising a certain individual, not every child at Wish House – so it allows to say that placing Valtiel in an unconsciousness is rather an exclusive technique practiced in the cult. But that's just a side note, since the view I've chosen on the subject basically does not contradict with the possibility of Valtiel being placed in more than one individual.
It is said that spirits it's something that does not have a physical form and can exist in more than one place simultaneously – in short: they are continual, and there's no point in counting or in any way measuring a spirit. In our case it would mean that the same Valtiel-spirit (shouldn't be confused with the manifestation from SH3) can be presented even in every child in the Wish House. There's another view on this concept: since such entities can be considered extradimensional, we can say it's just a side-effect caused by the process of projection from one plane of existence to another (for instance: the dimension Valtiel exists in may have nothing to do with the 3D world (why should it?) – in this sense all that dimension can be called Valtiel! So, being projected onto our reality it can be manifested in many Valtiels but still being the same spirit!).

And also we must remember that Silent Hill centers around psychology much more than around actual occult stuff - so, i believe we mustn't search for easy explanations such as "Samael did that, Valtiel did that, but then came Metatron and defeated them all", but try to look deeper in the psychological meanings of the situation.

I have to respectfully disagree. The accurate term here is "parapsychology." I know many people think that Silent Hill can be explained with psychology alone, but in my opinion, that's close to impossible, especially explaining Silent Hill 4 -The Room-. The supernatural and human psychology come together. That's what makes Silent Hill unique.

Yes, I rather agree with Burning Man here! As I mentioned in the beginning, I was a fan of a completely logical explanation of everything in the world of Silent Hill. But then I realized that with this approach the mysterious world of Silent Hill has become empty and there's nothing to wonder about anymore – only a pure logic that reminds rather some course of psychology at times. And so I found a different one that doesn't ban any other possibilities (like with the logical/psychological view that absolutely doesn't allow anything irrational to be considered). I mean, can a fully logical view explain all that supernatural stuff and all those 'otherworlds'? Alessa's special powers, how she was burned beyond a fatal level and went on living or how her soul was divided? I don't think so, because it's another sphere of understanding of the series that also shouldn't be banned.
Actually I see no problems with having a spiritualistic approach when considering everything regarding the deities in the SH world. The Japanese like this theme and it has a huge place in their games and anime (those mega popular anime series of these days – Bleach, Death Note – both feature so called 'Shinigami' (gods of death) – they are objectively existing entities there, not just some delusions), and of course Forbidden Siren that has so much in common with the concepts of the SH series (the extradimensional/supernatural beings there, like Datatsushi, do objectively exist). So, of course I'm not trying to change anybody's mind, but still, with all due respect, SilentPyramid, the 'it's all in their heads, it's all a brainwashing' approach is not perfect being applied just everywhere. I believe in a complex approach, and "parapsychology" is also a great (but not the only) way to explain many things in the series.

I wanted to ask the same thing. We were discussing Forbidden SIREN via the PM, but Moreu disappeared all of the sudden. I just hope it doesn't have anything to do with "otherworlds" and stuff, because i still really want to hear Moreau's opinion regarding the "SIREN" movie (^^)

I wish you two have created a thread for this discussion, but oh well…

Изменено: Kromy, 28 Июль 2007 - 23:12

[St.Aatos]

Actually I see no problems with having a spiritualistic approach when considering everything regarding the deities in the SH world. The Japanese like this theme and it has a huge place in their games and anime (those mega popular anime series of these days – Bleach, Death Note – both feature so called 'Shinigami' (gods of death) – they are objectively existing entities there, not just some delusions)

Don't forget the anime/magna "Angel Sanctuary" I'm still a little unclear as to who was influenced by who, but there are so many similarities between Silent Hill and Angel Sanctuary that it's rather creepy.

(Seriously. In Angel Sanctuary there's an angel that wants to find a woman as powerful as it is, so he can rape said woman so she can give birth to him. This sounds oddly similar to Incubus of Silent Hill 1.)

[Kromy]

Yeah, I've seen "Angel Sanctuary". Dunno about the manga (haven't read it) but in the anime I noticed there was that thing about mere people being reincarnations of angels and that in order to gain the powers and the consciousness of the corresponding angel they should awaken first -- which sounds pretty similar to Alessa's awakening. Oh, and there ware Raziel and Alexiel! XD

[St.Aatos]

Actually it's Rosiel and Alexiel. These two angels are supposed to be twins (one male and one female.) both created from Adam Kadmon. Alexiel's story seems to really parallel Alessa's. Alexiel rebels against God, a bunch of stuff happens. Bla bla bla, Alexiel is punished. Her punishment? Her soul is frozen, while her body is doomed to suffer reincarnation after reincarnation all of them to die horrible deaths. Hmm wow, doesn't that sound familiar? *cough*Alessa*cough*

[Kromy]

I see, thanks for the info! Ok, since we're talking about teh occult/religious/spiritualistic references in manga/anime, then I've found a real hardcore one! It's a manga called "O-Parts Hunter" (with the original Japanese name being "666 Satan"... cool, huh?! =) It's heavily inspired by Kabbalistic traditions, Judeo-Christian demonology, and Japanese folklore! Wow, could it get any closer to SH stuff?! Sure, because it features Metatron, Samael, Satan, Raziel and lots of other angels and demons that are either represented by characters or sealed within humans! Well, you better check the Wiki article for more details anyway: http://en.wikipedia..../O-Parts_Hunter

Изменено: Kromy, 25 Сентябрь 2007 - 23:43

[St.Aatos]

Hmm that is interesting. Thanks for that info Kromy!

Oh, here's something else interesting. I wouldn't take this at face value because it's in Italian (and I wonder how they got the name.) but they translated the Alizer runes as "Alexiel"

Another interesting thing too. I've always had the belief that Lobsel Vith's angelic name is Raziel. Well, one of Raziel's other names is "Salizer" hmm sound familiar? Hint: Take away the S.

[Kromy]

Oh, here's something else interesting. I wouldn't take this at face value because it's in Italian (and I wonder how they got the name.) but they translated the Alizer runes as "Alexiel"

I doubt they actually translated it as "Alexiel" -- unless they used some other runic alphabet, it's strictly "Alizer" no matter how you look at it. I think it's just someone's theory... as with the acronym "Raziel", actually.

Another interesting thing too. I've always had the belief that Lobsel Vith's angelic name is Raziel. Well, one of Raziel's other names is "Salizer" hmm sound familiar? Hint: Take away the S.

Interesting. And on the Halo the names "Incubus" and "Alizer" are written one after another, so if you take away the symbol of the eye between them and connect those two words, you'll get this: "INCUBUSALIZER"! Now, if to separate them this way: "Incubu_Salizer" hmm the first name sounds a lot like plural for "Incubus" -- "Incubi", and the second one... holy freaking crap, who would've thought -- "Salizer"! :upside:

[St.Aatos]

They might have been using different runes. I can try and find the site again, but it was one of those situations where I just stumbled upon it.

And speaking of which I found something rather interesting. There's a translation of something called the "Incantations and stories Mesopotamian" which contains a passage about something or someone named Alizer.

Here's the original translation (in Spanish.)

Qué Alizer desteja su alma
y cubra la mía! .

2 Que se funda

en una sola trama,

imposible de perforar.

3 Que el cielo con los mejores colores

y la bendición de Baal,

llene de ilusión

el largo camino del destino único.

Now here's the English translation. (From European Spanish to English.)

What Alizer glimmer her soul

and she covers her mía!

Which itself casing

on a quite alone woof

impossible of pierce.

Which the sky with chosen ones hues

and her boon of Baal,

full of illusion

the long road of the destiny unique.

Here's another translation.

What Alizer unravels its soul

and mine covers! .

2 That is based

in a single plot,

impossible to perforate.

3 That the sky with the best colors

and the blessing of Baal,

fill of illusion

the long way of the unique destiny.


Now here's a translation that hopefully remains faithful, but also makes sense.



What Alizer unravels in her soul, and mine covers.

That is based on a single plot. The sky of chosen hues is impossible to pierce.

The blessing of Baal, are full of illusion.

The long way of a unique destiny.


Well, what we can gather is that Alizer was at one point someone or something real and they had something to do with the god Baal. Interesting to note is that sacrifices done for Baal involved taking babies and then placing them on the fire heated hands of an idol of Baal. If the baby managed to live they were considered blessed, and if they died? Oh well! At least Baal would be happy!

[Kromy]

Baal... it's like Baaltiel... Valtiel!

The blessing of Baal, are full of illusion.

Oh, that's almost like "the lies and the mist are not they but I"! And Valtiel controls shifts to the otherworld... the world of illusions, so to speak.

Interesting to note is that sacrifices done for Baal involved taking babies and then placing them on the fire heated hands of an idol of Baal.

Babies, sacrifices, fire... hmm... and even the name in some way matches... well, there's definitely something to look for a connection or a parallel between Valtiel/Xuchilbara and Baal.

BTW, have you looked into the possible connection between the names on the Halo and the symbols between them (the big ones)? They might be corresponding to the each name, actually... and wouldn't it be the best way to try figure out the whole "who's Alizer" thingie? For instance "Alizer" stands in-between the symbols of the eye (possibly the Eye of Horus) and something that looks like either an angel's seal or some magical symbol. Any ideas?

Spoiler

Wow, I'm surprised how far we've gotten with this cute little offtop of ours XD

[St.Aatos]

Actually I've wondered about the possibility of the Incubus actually taking the form of Xuchilbara and not Lobsel Vith. The only thing preventing me from out right declaring this are the murals.

As for the symbols I have actually wondered about them. I believe the eye at the top is supposed to be "The Eye of the Night" aka The God. Interesting that it's inbetween Incubus and Alizer. It could show Incubus and Alizer's status as members of the God head.

The symbol inbetween Incubus and Dahlia are the scales, commonly in reference to the scales of justice, but also that of balance.

One thing I've read is that while Baphomet was known as the God of wealth and fertility, he was also seen as the God of balance. Or even perhaps balance personified. But why the scale would be between Incubus and Dahlia is beyond me. Unless Dahlia actually wanted balance in the world.

I'm not entirely sure what the symbol between Alessa and Dahlia is. I've heard it's supposed to be the devil's symbol, but that doesn't make sense in this context. Also can't tell what the symbol between Alessa and Alizer is.

[St.Aatos]

You know the more I think about it, the more I'm starting to think that Baphomet/Incubus is Xuchilbara and not Lobsel Vith or the God. I don't really know how to explain it, but it has to do with the seal.

In the play novel entry about the immolation ritual it mentions using a holy crest. According to Burning Man, (during one of our conversations.) the ritual is referring to the seal of Metatron. The seal of Metatron has the word Xuxchipaba written on it. I think what I'm wondering, is why would they use a seal of the Red God, in order to summon the Yellow God in order to impregnate Alessa with the child God? Last time I checked if you're going to summon something you had better use their assigned sigil or seal.

Also I've been wondering about Alessa herself being clad in the robes in honor of Valtiel. We've heard that the figures dressed in these robes, are cult members that Alessa's punished in her world. However there is one scene (the lizard boss fight) in which we see A figure in those robes, and being burned. I believe this is a representation of Alessa, and my hunch is proved even closer to the truth when at the end, we see Alessa in the wheel chair, clad in those robes.

There's also the factor too that Xuchilbara is known as the one who denies the death, and it's been said that the entity inside of Alessa protects her, because it wants and needs to protect it's mother's body. I'm sure that any of the deities could deny death, but Xuchilbara does seem to be the God of that area right there.

Grr, this whole thing is confusing.

[Kromy]

I'm not entirely sure what the symbol between Alessa and Dahlia is. I've heard it's supposed to be the devil's symbol, but that doesn't make sense in this context.

Why it doesn't? And yeah, it is a demon's signature -- take a look at this page (especially the pictures there): http://altreligion.a...eviritual16.htm

Also can't tell what the symbol between Alessa and Alizer is.

Well, I'm not sure myself, but it does somehow remind the symbol of Samael and the seal of Lucifer a little bit. Here, check this page -- maybe you'll manage to figure it out better than me: http://www.esoterica...lomon/l1203.htm

Actually I've wondered about the possibility of the Incubus actually taking the form of Xuchilbara and not Lobsel Vith.

Yeah, that's a possibility I never discounted due to the famous concept art depicting Incubus with the Seal of Metatron on the background. Unless someone clearly proves to me that Masahiro Ito was heavily drunk lol when he put the SoM on that drawing I find it doubtful to claim that Incubus is LV when the seal says "Xuchilbara"... or if someone disproves just that (to tell you the truth, I never did find it there... I even doubt it's Enochian at all...)

[St.Aatos]

I looked at the links you provided. I still couldn't find the symbol, or a close symbol between Alessa and Alizer. As for the one between Dahlia and Alessa I did notice that wrapped around the trident is the number 7. Next to it looks something that could be a 5 or an S.

Now it could be a symbol of the devil, or the cult's devil. I believe the Halo of the Sun is an all around representation of the God, and all that encompass her/him. The memo in SH3 when correctly implied states "It is called the Halo of the Sun, and it represents the deity." The placement of the devil's sigil at the bottom could indicate it's low status beneath the God.


The writing around the SoM is hard to make out. I found out that you more or less have to take the symbols, and look at them through all angles, because it appears a lot of them are upside down, backwards, or just angled funny.

In fact I actually recently wrote a theory about Incubus being the red God.