42 ответов в теме

[Kromy]

Yup, looks like I'm out of league now :]

Ok, then I just ask you both. What do you think about Walter's death? I more or less know what SilentPyramid thinks about it (unless something has changed, it should be that theory from the PA). Well, anyway, I have the Authorized Collection SH4 guidebook (the european one) and it suggests that all this official info about Walter's death in the prison could be fake -- like it was what police made up to cover up Walter's disappearance from the prison or that they just didn't catch him at all (dunno, the book doesn't say which was it -- so these are my ideas). I know any guidebooks except for Japanese ones shouldn't be considered, but still it might be an interesting suggestion. After all, the original Victim file for Walter says "even the dead body has not been found so it may be inappropriate to call it John Doe however. It is true that there is a victim". These lines are always sounded strange to me... like a suggestion that all the official stuff about Walter's death is fake, and Joseph also didn't know that. Maybe it's something wrong with the translation... so, here -- I found the original Japanese text for this part:

Spoiler

すべては不明である。遺体の発見すらされていないため、身元不明死
体を意味するジョン・ドゥーの名で呼ぶのは不適切かも知れない。
ただ被害者がいるということだけは確かだ。
この被害者は仮にジョンと呼ぶが「経典」「白の香油」「黒の酒杯」
「十の心臓」を用いて <開放の儀式> を執り行ったとされている。
<解放の儀式> をなせるのは、ジョージ・ロステンが育てた人物ただ
ひとりとされているが、すべてはベールに包まれている。

（この人物”ジョン・ドゥー”は術者）

So what do you think about this? Could this official info from the police about Walter's death be fake? Kinda they didn't know how to explain how he could disappear from the prison cell so they made up this suicide thingie. Come to think of it, Walter was a "conjurer" brainwashed with the teachings of Valtiel who is known as "the Magician". Maybe he could just be able to open kinda portals into the otherworld (like those holes with the Halo on it), since Valtiel is the guide in the otherworld, and using this method he escaped from the prison. Dunno, I just want to hear some new ideas on this subject, for mostly I am a fan of the SilentPyramid's theory on this (and, as I remember, always been =).

[SilentPyramid]

Regarding Walter's death. I think that there could be no doubt that when Team Silent created the Walter Sullivan character, they suggested that he really died in his prison cell. Japanese "Lost Memories" book also tells that Walter really did kill himself "Walter Sullivan murdered a young boy and his sister, and then took his own life" without mentioning even a single word, that could lead to idea about that info about death was fake. Also, what reason do we have to think that police released Sullivan and posted a fake info about his death? And what reason do we have to think that Walter didn't commit suiceide even when we know that he believed that becoming 11-th victim will only free him from the bonds of the flesh? ]
So i think, that Walter really did DIE in his prison cell. But, look closely at Walter's grave in his world -- it completely dug up and looks like someone CAME OUT of it, and it also has 11121 on it, stating that Walter has became the 11th victim. It clearly hints that Walter died in REALITY, but resurrected inside his own world (just like all other his victims) - as 11th victim and the Conjurer.

After all, the original Victim file for Walter says "even the dead body has not been found so it may be inappropriate to call it John Doe however. It is true that there is a victim". These lines are always sounded strange to me... like a suggestion that all the official stuff about Walter's death is fake, and Joseph also didn't know that. Maybe it's something wrong with the translation...

No, as far as i can say it's OK with translation -- it's just that you misinterpretated the meaning of the file. The file says that the body of "11th VICTIM" has never been found. But it's absolutely true -- becuse the police didn't know that WALTER HIMSELF WAS 11th VICTIM! They searched, and searched, and searched for some victim with numbers 11/21 carved on it's body -- but never found one, because they never realised the process of 21 Sacraments ritual and never realised that Walter's suicide was also a part of the ritual. That's 11th victim never was found.

[Kromy]

And what reason do we have to think that Walter didn't commit suiceide even when we know that he believed that becoming 11-th victim will only free him from the bonds of the flesh?

Well, because according to the scripture he was to kill himself during the Holy Assumption ceremony -- which, as we know, he did -- only not in the prison cell but in the back room of the 302. I mean that's the real question about Walter's death: was his death (if it really happened) in the prison a part of his plan with the ritual? If it was, then we clearly have 2 deaths of Walter Sullivan -- in the prison cell and in the apartment's back room. And exactly this part raises many doubts and questions (I know it from my own experience, and I'm sure you too, for many people do have serious problems comprehending this part). As I said, I know your theory from the PA perfectly and have had a lot of time thinking about it, hovewer some things are still unclear. As we know, Walter did perform the Holy Assumption ceremony in the apartment and yet, while only the ceremony itself was supposed to release him from the bonds of the flesh, he managed to return to Ashfield after his physical death at the prison as if he was already released. How is that possible? I know, the ghost theory -- which is probably the only way to explain that. But still, nor only the scripture does not cover this case, but also it would require to accept the idea that Walter really planed to die in the prison -- just to die yet again, only this time properly -- in the apartment. And this concept is also can be hard to swallow, because as can be seen, the body is also needed for the rest of the ritual -- it can't be just left behind like in case of his death in the prison. And so it also requires to accept the idea that Walter nor only knew that killing himself even before the Holy Assumption would not end it all, but also he really planed to take his body back from the police! Not even being a real person, to take a real body! Otherwise, we must accept a totally crazy idea that Walter knew that even a NOT REAL BODY would be fine for the ritual (if he didn't plan to take his real body back from the police, and knew that a delusional body would be manifested after his second death! ). And this is totally crazy!
So I just don't know... while the theories about the ghost Walter digging up his own body and then dragging it from Silent Hill to Ashfield rather make me chuckle this one we're talking about is also not perfect. Maybe after all it's just a flaw on the part of Team Silent not tying everything up, and now we have to make all the possible theories neither of which seems to be perfect. :upside:

So i think, that Walter really did DIE in his prison cell. But, look closely at Walter's grave in his world -- it completely dug up and looks like someone CAME OUT of it, and it also has 11121 on it, stating that Walter has became the 11th victim. It clearly hints that Walter died in REALITY, but resurrected inside his own world (just like all other his victims) - as 11th victim and the Conjurer.

By the way about the grave, yes I also believe that the grave in the Forest world is only what can be found in the reality of Walter. I mean, why would police even bother taking his body in the woods and bury it on the cult's graveyard near the Wish House (it was even closed and fenced)? And IMHO it doesn't fit the description of an unmarked grave either. So I guess this grave can be found only in the Walter's world -- in reality the body was buried somewhere else -- somewhere outside of Silent Hill (the Wish House is obviously "inside"). The reason why the grave is there, not anywhere else, I guess is because that was the only graveyard Walter had seen in his whole life and all his associations with graves and graveyards were connected to that place.

No, as far as i can say it's OK with translation -- it's just that you misinterpretated the meaning of the file. The file says that the body of "11th VICTIM" has never been found. But it's absolutely true -- becuse the police didn't know that WALTER HIMSELF WAS 11th VICTIM! They searched, and searched, and searched for some victim with numbers 11/21 carved on it's body -- but never found one, because they never realised the process of 21 Sacraments ritual and never realised that Walter's suicide was also a part of the ritual. That's 11th victim never was found.

Yeah, you're absolutely right! Now that I think of it, it was kinda obvious -- why hadn't I thought about it?! XP
But still, what about that John Doe analogy -- "the one who uses special powers or skill"? Seems like a suggestion towards the Walter's abilities as a "conjurer"... what does this have to do with the police having not found the body of the 11th victim?

Изменено: Kromy, 25 Июль 2007 - 00:08

[SilentPyramid]

Well, because according to the scripture he was to kill himself during the Holy Assumption ceremony -- which, as we know, he did -- only not in the prison cell but in the back room of the 302. I mean that's the real question about Walter's death: was his death (if it really happened) in the prison a part of his plan with the ritual? If it was, then we clearly have 2 deaths of Walter Sullivan -- in the prison cell and in the apartment's back room. And exactly this part raises many doubts and questions (I know it from my own experience, and I'm sure you too, for many people do have serious problems comprehending this part). As I said, I know your theory from the PA perfectly and have had a lot of time thinking about it, hovewer some things are still unclear. As we know, Walter did perform the Holy Assumption ceremony in the apartment and yet, while only the ceremony itself was supposed to release him from the bonds of the flesh, he managed to return to Ashfield after his physical death at the prison as if he was already released. How is that possible?

That's easy. The meaning of Holy Assumption is to kill yourself after 10th killing to reincarnate inside your own world -- but it's exactly what Walter did at the prison! He just didn't prepared the standart rites - but it's only formal part of ritual. For example, when magicians in mid-age were performing cure, they mixed two chemicals together and chanted a prayer. But the prayer was a formal rite -- and the cure would've been ready regardless of they prayers. And the same with Walter. He died in the prison and his body was buried -- but he continued to exist in his own world without beung able to dissapear, because he was already freed from the bonds of flesh!

So I just don't know... while the theories about the ghost Walter digging up his own body and then dragging it from Silent Hill to Ashfield rather make me chuckle

Walter didn't dug his own grave in reality. He only got out of the grave inside HIS OWN WORLD after dying in the prison. I believe, at that point he hadn't even realised that he was dead and existed only inside "otherworld" -- most probably, Walter thought that he resurrected to finaly complete Holy Assumption with all proper rites. Just like the Christ: 3 days after humans condemned him as a criminal and killed on the cross (remember the Walter dying in the prison), Jesus Christ was resurrected only to finish all his missions in this world and go up to Heavens. I believe Konami based Walter's story on the Jesus Christ, so in that sense IMHO saying that Walter didn't die at the prison is like saying that Jesus didn't die on the cross.
So, Walter died two times: first, he really died in the prison. But he awakened as a bodyless spirit inside his own world, and, while still believing to be resurrected like Jesus Christ and alive, Walter performed the complete Holy Assumption inside his "otherworld"'s Room 302. That's why he was able to crusify himself inside room 302 and impale his own body with strange pipe -- he did it only inside his own otherworld. He couldn't do such a horrible thing in the real world (it's physically impossible for a human -- even for a complete psycho like Walter), nor could he RALLY bring a REAL cross that huge to REAL South Ashfield Heights (i think in reality Walter won't be able to even hold this thing for a long time, not saying something about dragging it 3 floors up without being seen like a Solid Snake %)))) )

So I guess this grave can be found only in the Walter's world

Yes, the grave that we see in SH4 exists only in Walter's world. However, it's not fully explained in the game where Walter's body was really buried, so, i believe, we can't reject the idea that he was buried in Silent Hill either.

But still, what about that John Doe analogy -- "the one who uses special powers or skill"? Seems like a suggestion towards the Walter's abilities as a "conjurer"... what does this have to do with the police having not found the body of the 11th victim?

John Doe - is just a english name for someone who is totally unknown. It doesn't actually suggest anything about special powers or supernatural skills. Corpses and victims with unknown identities are also called John Doe: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_doe - and, i believe, that is the reason behind the idea of naming the 11th victim John Doe.
I believe, Moreau could tell us more about this (^^)
BTW, quite funny, but there's also a Joe Shmoe %)))) : http://en.wikipedia....wiki/Joe_schmoe

[St.Aatos]

We do know that Valtiel was placed inside of Walter in order to carry about the executions. My newest speculation on his death, is that Walter killed himself in the prison. With the aid of Valtiel his spirit escapes his body, but remains on earth as a tangible spirit (unable to go through doors or solid objects.) I think it's this tangible spirit of Walter that eventually digs his own body out of the grave and takes it room 302 for the ritual of the Holy Assumption.

[Kromy]

Yes, we're kinda forgetting about Valtiel in Walter's subconscious. As St.Aatos mentioned, Valtiel is not only assotiated with carrying out executions but also he is the deity governing the circle of rebirth. In case of Walter that could be the reason why even killing himself not during the Holy Assumption only had freed him from the body, while the ceremony itself had rather played a role in creating his own world to exist in (separated from the world of the living). That still goes well with the theory from the PA -- while SilentPyramid tends to explain Walter's ability to die but still being able to act after physical death with the properties and the nature of ghosts that play a huge role in the whole plot of SH4, the theory about Valtiel can easily replace it without contradicting the rest!

SilentPyramid, I have read everything you've said in the last post and I do understand it all! The funny thing is that I usually use the same arguments but now it's kinda funny to find myself on the other side of that discussion! ^^ Lol, and I also use this funny comparisions with MSG and RE... Silent Hill Solid! *Infiltrating the South Ashfield Heights with the body on his back, maintaining a constant communication with Valtiel via the nanomachines while avoiding the patroling Braintree, Walter had finally reached the back room of the 302, where he had to hid the body so that even the super couldn't be able to notice a thing! Now that's the true Silent Hill Solid!* :roll2:

BTW, it was a great analogy with Jesus! I've already heard before about Walter being compared to Jesus -- mostly beause of that cross his body is hanging on, but this one is new to me -- and it also makes sense!


About John Doe, thanks -- I didn't know! So basically it just means "unknown"... yeah, probably it doesn't go deeper than that.

I believe, Moreau could tell us more about this (^^)

I guess... btw, where is he? Actually, St.Aatos can tell about it as much as Moreau. ^^

Изменено: Monna STEW, 25 Июль 2007 - 14:35

[St.Aatos]

Glad to be here.

Another thing that Valtiel can do is shift the worlds based on the unconscious mind of a person.

I guess... btw, where is he? Actually, St.Aatos can tell about it as much as Moreau. ^^

Not really, no. I'm still trying to figure out SH4 actually in my own way.

I have speculated that while performing the Holy Assumption, Walter more or less descends his spirit into his own unconscious mind. Therefore all the worlds are a part of Walter's unconscious mind with room 302 acting as a central nexus of sorts.

Btw Kromy you'll be pleased to note a few theories I've cooked up.

[Kromy]

Another thing that Valtiel can do is shift the worlds based on the unconscious mind of a person.

Yeah, that's right. Then the next interesting question would be: where's exactly that shift takes place -- only in the head of the one experiencing this shift or does it create a sorta objective realm separated from reality? In case of Walter it's rather first 'cause as we know his body was left behind, which means only his mind/soul/spirit/consciousness could be able to experience that shift -- and that means it was subjective. Well, abstracting from too much logic, the whole thing could be pretty symbolic to how it usually depicts with angels involved -- Valtiel descended from Heavens (for the cult -- it's the otherworld) and took Walter's soul in that otherworld (like to Heavens). And here you have it: from that common otherworld ("the world of our Lord") he created his own otherworld -- his kingdom, separated nor only from the living world but even from the otherworld the cult believes in! Wow, that's something interesting I made up just now! XD

I have speculated that while performing the Holy Assumption, Walter more or less descends his spirit into his own unconscious mind. Therefore all the worlds are a part of Walter's unconscious mind with room 302 acting as a central nexus of sorts.

"Descends his spirit into his own unconscious mind" -- isn't it the same as "creates his own world"? I mean, sure, the terminology seems to differ, and of course no one actually thinks that he really built (in sense, like constructing a building =) anything, but still we are talking about the same result -- the world separated from the world of the living, where Walter is a creator and god. And all the worlds are a part of Walter's unconscious mind anyway. BTW, once I heard these ideas about the 302 being a central nexus of the worlds -- well, it's good and even kinda logical for Joseph also compared the room to a "locus" ("He used this place as the locus for the creation of his world").



2Monna STEW
What was the reason for editing my previous post? Did I break any rules or something?

[St.Aatos]

Actually I think in this case Valtiel is not just twisting the mind of Walter, but also the minds of the apartment residents.

"Descends his spirit into his own unconscious mind" -- isn't it the same as "creates his own world"?

Not really. One states the how of what Walter did. (How did Walter create his own world? By descending his spirit into his mind.) The latter states what he did. (What did Walter do? Create his own world.)

[Burning Man]

I believe you're missing one little detail. Jimmy Stone was SHOT WITH A GUN. From the back. Do you think that Walter just happened to find the gun somewhere along the road to Wish House and took it with him for a collection? I doubt it. It means that Walter from the beginning was planning to kill Jimmy Stone, when he went to Wish House.

Unfortunately, the exact same reasoning can be applied to Billy and Miriam Locane. According to your reasoning, Walter must have planned to kill them because he cannot have just happened to find an axe somewhere along the road to the Locane Residence and took it with him for a collection.

You are simply making an exception for the Locane siblings because you assume that they are too young for them to have had any impact on Walter.

[SilentPyramid]

2 st. Aatos: Hi and nice to see you on our forums! (^^)

We do know that Valtiel was placed inside of Walter in order to carry about the executions.

I believe, it's not that REAL Valtiel was placed inside Walter. Valtiel's sect purpose was to raise a skilled follower - and thus, the sect raised orphans, so they would believe in Valtiel - so that faith in Valtiel would be buried deep into thay unconsciousness. In that sense, the *idea* of Valtiel was placed inside of Walter's mind -- not the spirit of some real deity (^^)

I think it's this tangible spirit of Walter that eventually digs his own body out of the grave and takes it room 302 for the ritual of the Holy Assumption.

I don't think that Walter's spirit really dug up his real grave. Yes, the grave *inside of the Walter's world is dug* -- but it doesn't mean that the real one was also opened. Police would immediately start moving if something was done to the real grave.

In case of Walter that could be the reason why even killing himself not during the Holy Assumption only had freed him from the body, while the ceremony itself had rather played a role in creating his own world to exist in (separated from the world of the living).

Yes, Walter also could believe that he would be definitely resurrected because of the idea of Valtiel was placed deep inside his unconsciousness.

Actually I think in this case Valtiel is not just twisting the mind of Walter, but also the minds of the apartment residents.

I believe Valtiel doesn't have to do anything with the residents. It's not that Valtiel is some evil spirit with mind of his own, who places the resident inside Walter's world to make them suffer =)

I guess... btw, where is he?

I wanted to ask the same thing. We were discussing Forbidden SIREN via the PM, but Moreu disappeared all of the sudden. I just hope it doesn't have anything to do with "otherworlds" and stuff, because i still really want to hear Moreau's opinion regarding the "SIREN" movie (^^)

[St.Aatos]

I believe that in the religion of Silent Hill, Valtiel (who some believe to be Xuchilbara) would be the Holy Spirit of the Order. (For example take into consideration in SH2: BFaW in which a certain passage reads "Oh Spirit of the Mist. Grant us fortune eternal.) And so I do believe that he can be omnipresent.

One problem I have with the idea of the idea of Valtiel being placed into Walter's mind (and the minds of other children.) is that an idea does not necessarily cause someone to go on a killing spree. I mean, I know of the idea of Nemesis a Greek Goddess, and yet I don't go about killing people as a form of justice.

Catch my drift?

[SilentPyramid]

One problem I have with the idea of the idea of Valtiel being placed into Walter's mind (and the minds of other children.) is that an idea does not necessarily cause someone to go on a killing spree. I mean, I know of the idea of Nemesis a Greek Goddess, and yet I don't go about killing people as a form of justice.

Not at all. You just *know* about this Goddess -- and you don't really believe in her at unconscious level. But the cult wasn't just educating children on mythology - thay made them BELIEVE it, they braiwashed them day by day. It's two completely different things. You see, if someone is made believe that he HAS TO KILL - then he'll do it. There's a lot of incident when the sects followers even commit suicides and kill themselves, because of the their deep belief -- so it's nothing impossible that a man could also become a murderer, because he was brainwashed by the sect (for example, remeber the incident in japanese subway in 1995, where sect's followers tried to kill people with the poisonous gas). Such cases appear quite often in the world.

I believe that in the religion of Silent Hill, Valtiel (who some believe to be Xuchilbara) would be the Holy Spirit of the Order. (For example take into consideration in SH2: BFaW in which a certain passage reads "Oh Spirit of the Mist. Grant us fortune eternal.) And so I do believe that he can be omnipresent.

No, i don't think that the sect placed REAL Valtiel inside children -- first, what proof do we have to say that sect's followers could PLACE some real spirit inside the children? They weren't Gods or something to control supernatural beings. Also, IMHO it doesn't make sense that they could place REAL Valtiel in every child (or was there 10.000.000 Valtiels and sect was producing'em like the "Aliens" in the famous horror movie to place iside the children? %))) ) And also we must remember that Silent Hill centers around psychology much more than around actual occult stuff - so, i believe we mustn't search for easy explanations such as "Samael did that, Valtiel did that, but then came Metatron and defeated them all", but try to look deeper in the psychological meanings of the situation.

[Burning Man]

No, i don't think that the sect placed REAL Valtiel inside children -- first, what proof do we have to say that sect's followers could PLACE some real spirit inside the children?

Placing Incubus within Alessa is a strong suggestion.

Also, IMHO it doesn't make sense that they could place REAL Valtiel in every child

I don't know about "every child," but I'm quite sure that Rosten placed Valtiel in Walter.

A phrase such as "Valtiel wo shinobi komaseru koto" can hardly be used for your reasoning. The phrase is closer in meaning that Rosten made Valtiel infiltrate into Walter's unconsciousness. Rosten is dealing with an actual entity and not a concept.

And also we must remember that Silent Hill centers around psychology much more than around actual occult stuff - so, i believe we mustn't search for easy explanations such as "Samael did that, Valtiel did that, but then came Metatron and defeated them all", but try to look deeper in the psychological meanings of the situation.

I have to respectfully disagree. The accurate term here is "parapsychology." I know many people think that Silent Hill can be explained with psychology alone, but in my opinion, that's close to impossible, especially explaining Silent Hill 4 -The Room-. The supernatural and human psychology come together. That's what makes Silent Hill unique.

[St.Aatos]

I pretty much agree with BM here.

Oh, yeah and I just got off of work...go Bingos!

...wait. What?